Is this field kubb in or out?

+1 vote
asked Jun 23, 2012 by KubbHW Ironkubb ✭ (2,430 points)
retagged Jul 28, 2012 by thingles

World Championship rule 4 says: "If a field kubb comes to rest outside the defending team’s half of the pitch, one re-throw is allowed by the attacking team. A second miss..." So a field kubb that comes to rest outside the defending team’s half of the pitch is miss according to the WC rules. WC rule 5A says: "If any kubb has landed on the line, it must be raised so that at least half the kubb base is within the pitch area."

The kubb in the picture is 100% in the defenders half of the pitch and doesn’t touch the line. So I think there’s no other conclusion than calling it to be out-bounds. It doesn’t matter it can be raised more than 50% in. That rules is only for kubbs that has landed on the line. This one is not on the line!

But what do you think?

commented Jun 23, 2012 by C=mxcXKubbSection Ironkubb ✭ (1,330 points)
In bounds!
Even in Rone, Gotland, at W.C. this would be ruled in bounds. After all kubbs have been thrown at first, you try every kubb that is "in doubt", by raising them "the possible way", before judgeing whitch kubbs to be in or out of bounds. This one would have been carefully raised, and by both teams judged OK, then put back carefully in original position, while eventuallty "out of bounds" kubbs would have been rethrown once.
commented Jun 23, 2012 by Dobbie Kubblic ❚ (6,450 points)
So, based on the rules as stated in the question.....the rules tell a different story than what is being performed on the field? Or translation issue, or something different?
commented Jun 24, 2012 by KubbHW Ironkubb ✭ (2,430 points)
That's strange indeed. And it's no translation issue. The Swedish rules say: "Om den ligger på “linjen” så skall..."

But why they say at the W.C. this kubb is "in doubt"? The kubb has to be thrown in the opponents half of the pitch. This one isn't. According to the rules it's only "in doubt" when it's on the line. This one isn't.
commented Jun 24, 2012 by C=mxcXKubbSection Ironkubb ✭ (1,330 points)

In this clip from Rone you see the interpretation of the situation in "praxis". Check out the way the first thrown kubb will be situated. Look what the defending team, and one of the refs, makes of the situation.

In this "border situation", the "...all kubbs that can be raised in bounds must be raised in bounds"-rule  overrules the rule about the line. No big deal matchwise, as you can see.
commented Jun 24, 2012 by KubbHW Ironkubb ✭ (2,430 points)
I rest my case. Video evidence of how it's done on the W.C. No doubts left: the kubb is in bounds.

1 Answer

+1 vote
answered Jun 23, 2012 by Dobbie Kubblic ❚ (6,450 points)
Firstly, thanks for the post. This "ask" site is going to become a great resource worldwide to understanding (and hopefully conforming) kubb rules internationally. Thanks for the post. In current US Nationals rules, the above scenario (I believe) would be ruled in bounds. "A Kubb that can be raised in bounds must be raised in bounds". There is no discretion between a flat kubb on the line or in front of the line. US Nationals rules are looking at the potential footprint of the kubb. If the footprint is 50% on the line (or too close to call out) then it is in. It appears the World Championship rules work differently, and the kubb has to at least "touch" the line. Which I find weird for one reason: this is the only line rule in kubb that relies on a "determining edge". Kubb is the only sport (I know of) that doesn't use a determing edge for all facets of lines. In hockey the determing edge of the goal-line if the far side of the line (the puck has to cross the line entirely. In American football, the determing edge of the goal-line is the nearest edge (the tip of the ball has to touch the line). Kubb (aside from the WC rule above) doesn't use determining edge, and sometimes that leads to judgement calls by officials (in/out), even if lines are painted. I personally don't like that as much. Imagine bringing in the line 3.5 cm and saying if it touches a line its in. No more judgement calls. No more ambiguity. This however leads to potential problems with the centerline though. Okay, I'm digressing a bit, but my opinion is that it is easier to call in/out on a standing kubb than it would calling a flat kubb touching an imaginary line. I also think you should either play half-in/half-out OR play determining edge. Pick one, but don't use determining edge in some situations, then half-in/half-out in others. Again, that is my 2cents, and I have seen the overall "theme" of the US National rules drift closer and closer to World Championship rules. I personally think some rules in US Nationals work better than Worlds, and that happens. Consider "no-touch icing" in hockey. Small AAA Leagues use that rule (NHL doesn't), and the overall feedback from fans is "we like that better". Its safe, it speeds up the game, and it makes sense. Well, the NHL watches them, gets feedback, tries it out, and I would expect sometime soon you will see NHL adopting that rule. For this rule, I think for now based on what I know, I like the US National rules better. I would encourage US Nationals to try the WC rule out, and for other tournaments using this rule to try US Nationals way. Use this forum for sharing the gaps, successes/failures with the rule, and continue to work on unified rules. We will never have the Kubb Bible that all countries use that is the same. But we can at least understand the differences, understand WHY there are differences, and in some cases agree to disagree. In other cases, changes could potentially be made either way. I am just happy to find people out there that are as passionate about kubb as I am. Thanks Tony!
commented Jun 24, 2012 by KubbHW Ironkubb ✭ (2,430 points)
Josh, I don't understand why you're talking about the "determining line". In kubb lines are not actually painted on the grass but only marked with stakes. So I think a line has no thickness like in math.

But even then: Let's say the line in the picture above is the determining line. The kubb is not on it. It's entirely in the wrong half of the pitch. The W.C. rules only say kubb on the line have to be raised and be judged to be in or out of bounds.
commented Jun 24, 2012 by Dobbie Kubblic ❚ (6,450 points)
Yeah, I apologized for the tangent on determining edge. Hahaha, it was unrelated.
commented Jul 6, 2012 by Dobbie Kubblic ❚ (6,450 points)
I just had to bump this to the top...what an amazing in-depth discussion that is changing international rulesets. Go PlanetKubb!