What statistics are interesting for a Kubb game?

0 votes
asked Jul 12, 2012 by thingles Kubblic ❚ (6,110 points)

I've been doing a bunch of work on the Planet Kubb Wiki getting the scoring system going and it's coming along really well I think. Tonight I cleaned up the stats calculations and put a couple of graphs in the display just to show that it can be done. For an example see

http://wiki.planetkubb.com/wiki/2012_Madison_Midsommar_Kubb_Tournament_Final_Game_One

(FYI, that game was actually entered by Chris Hodges in Des Moines. Thanks!)

This page needs a lot of design work obviously, but it will get really nice over time. I'm sure of it. I'm more focused on data right now. On the bottom of the page you'll see a section "Raw Data". I'm looking for feedback on player stats right now. You'll see I have the following so far:

cp baton_hit: 8
cp baton_hit_base: 6
cp last_baton: hit
cp hot_streak: 6
cp hot_streak_max: 6
cp baton_miss: 3
cp baton_miss_base: 3
cp cold_streak: 3
cp cold_streak_max: 3
cp baton_hit_advantage: 2

I think those are self explanatory. Mainly I can tell how accurate a player throws both overall and specifically from the baseline or the advantage line. I also really like the streak_max information. In this game the player had 6 batons hit in a row at most, and 3 batons miss in a row.

What other player statistics do you think would be worthwhile?

4 Answers

+1 vote
answered Jul 17, 2012 by C=mxcXKubbSection Ironkubb ✭ (1,330 points)

First, let me tell you all dealing with the stats, that I admire your work. I think it's of great importance getting this from a "lawn game" into a sport. And you have all done a great job, so far! Just great!

I dealt with the scoring sheet issue back in 2009 - 2010. I even had a dummy ready for the 2010 WC in Rone. But it never happend. We went too far in the tournament that saturday, and by the time we had finished playing in the consolation, quaterfinals where on the edge, and we where to tired to take things up, and we wanted to look at world Kubb instead, and... etc etc

Well, let me share some of my initial thoughts about my work, wich I still have left (by 2011 I found out I had by mistake throwed away nearly all material, it was mixed up with somthing else that also was regarded paper garbage).

First, to me there are four main perspective of Kubb stats:

1. Before = Gameplan

2. During = Skill level

3. Afterwards = Analysis

4. Commentator = All "...ator" perspectives (Spectator, gambling/betting etc etc)

 

Before:

The stats should help me ask these (and no more, keep it simple) questions

"How worried should I be if we let them have one our field kubbs left standing?"

"I want to know how they play, so we won't lost our confidence if they start with 4 of 5 base kubbs in round 1."

 

During:

"Who in my team right now have the hot/cold hand?"

 

Afterwards: I require

Basic data for my future game plan, meaning

I think there is a point in concidering base line throws as the 3-pointer of Basketball stats, meaning don't mix it up with field goal %. The latter in kubb is all throws at kubbs from the baseline, even penalty kubbs placed on the base line. An under group of this is "points in the paint" wich in kubb will be when my team throws from a penalty line. I will need hit/miss ratio on each of the three categories and on the last two mixed together. For me, the total, including 8 meters are uninteresting because they diverse in characteristics to much.

Also important in my analysis will be the number of kubbs hit with the first baton throwed. This will tell me something about my ability to throw kubbs in. I will as well be interested in the hit/miss ratio of the baton throwed at the last standing field kubb. and I will be interested in the hit ratio on the sixth baton. Why? Because when we play, if it's 3-3 the best player/hot hand will likely throw the first and the last baton. OR the important baton to finally clean the field. We don't throw in strict order, or always three or two batons in a row.

I would of course wan't the King throw hit/miss ratio.

And finally, I wan't to know the general weather conditions during the achievement. Was it sunny, dry and calm? Or was it wet cold and windy, that tells me a lot of the difficulty built in the tour de force, and I will be able to exclude conditions not actual in my stats for the actual gameplan.

 

Commentary:

In this category lands everything else, including all probability related stats etc needed to speculate. Think Mike Breen/Jeff van Gundy or betting/gambling or just simple neerdy interest in the game. A lot of (unreflected) stat wishes comes in this category, but they often doesen't affect the game or game plan - meaning - don't let them get prio if you got loads of other work to do.

 

Ooh, almost forgot, two remarks for the scoring sheets. Firstly, my proposal is you should begin by thinking it all origins from the batons, and you attach the player to the baton, it's the baton that is the part of the game, not the player. Secondly you got to make room even for substitutes in a six player team (if it should be useful in Europe), I've seen up to nine players, seldom more than that.

 

Kubb on, ladies and gentlemen!

commented Jul 17, 2012 by thingles Kubblic ❚ (6,110 points)
Wow! Thank you for the thoughtful answer. Really great.

This whole project has me really trying to solve three different things, related to everything you have noted above.

Notation:

You need to have a very effective notation system to be able to record what happens in a game. This is where I focused my attention first and now that we've scored 20 or so games I feel pretty comfortable that the notation system is at the right spot. Complete enough to accurately capture everything in the game, not overly complex (small number of actions) and very importantly it is FAST. You can record a game faster than the game is played (typically) so the score keeper is able to keep up.

The notation system saw the addition of rethrows and penalty Kubbs at US Nationals as well as the addition of "I" to indicate an illegal baton. I feel really good about the notation.

http://wiki.planetkubb.com/wiki/Notation

I would absolutely love to see turn by turn notation broadcast as the games are going on at Worlds! :-)

Scoresheet:

The notation system could be used "raw" but that would be very hard. A well designed scoresheet makes it easy for someone to grab a clipboard and go to work on a game. We found at US Nationals that it was generally easy for 1 person to score the game in realtime using the scoresheet. We identified some gaps in the form that we remedied. I think this is really solid now as well, maybe a couple final polish items. Main change after US Nationals was the enhanced inkast box and multiple designations for advantage lines (center, mid, base).

http://wiki.planetkubb.com/wiki/Scoresheet

(Note, the scoresheet doesn't easily handle multiple inkastare's. I'm not sure how big of an issue that is.)

Statistics:

Building on notation and the scoresheet we can now put the games in a system and generate data. This is the least developed part of our solution as of yet, but this can naturally evolve over time. The key is if the notation system and scoresheet capture everything. As long as they do, the algorithms and functions can be tweaked later to identify new data points.

http://wiki.planetkubb.com/wiki/Category:Game

I feel like these three things have built a really good foundation to tackle the items that you listed above. It will take time to design the screens and functions for all of it, but doable.

If anyone reading this wants to dive into MediaWiki functions to help build this stuff out all you need is an account on the Planet Kubb Wiki with some additional permissions to edit Templates. Let me know here if you would want to assist.
commented Jul 17, 2012 by thingles Kubblic ❚ (6,110 points)
One additional comment. I can't emphasize how amazing it would be if the first part of this, Notation, was something that we could get worldwide agreement on. Scoresheets will be localized, and the language of the stats will be as well and in fact some places may decide they like some stats more than others.

However, if Notation were adopted as a common standard that would allow anyone in the world to easily review a Kubb game from anywhere else with no language barriers. Think of it like a baseball box score, or music notation.

This is also one of the reasons the Notation itself is licensed Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike. The intent is to allow this to be used all over.

Any assistance our Kubbers around the globe could lend to that effort would be amazing. And the Planet Kubb Wiki is ready to take game entries from any tournaments anywhere in the world (however, unfortunately only in English now).
commented Jul 17, 2012 by C=mxcXKubbSection Ironkubb ✭ (1,330 points)
Thx, some well put answers.

Here is a short reply on parts of both your comments:

1. Regarding Inkastare. Same as with batons. You have to think of the kubbs as the origin, and attach an Inkastare to each. But I'm not shure I agree with Dobbie about the importance of bringing this one on. Since it's my hits/misses that determins the game, that is important. And as I remarked, the number of kubbs hit by the first batons tells me if the inkastare have done the job. I think that is enough (keep it simple).

2. In Europe we have tournaments with different inkastare as house rules. Both Swedish larger tournaments Kubbistan and the Swedish Championships in Nybro have the rule that all participating players should share the kubbs inkast as equal as possible, each round.

In Germany the rule says that it's only one inkastare every round, but it should be switched in a given pattern between all members of the team.

IF this part is important (to an extent I right now doubt) it must be solved if you want the notaion to be valid on this side of the pool.

3. I'm not so into Swiss Kubb, but I have seen Internet pages with lots of stats for every individual who have played in one of the "official" Swiss tournaments. Maybe you should try to get in contact with these guys and check out their ideas?

http://www.swisskubb.ch/index.php?lang=english
commented Jul 17, 2012 by C=mxcXKubbSection Ironkubb ✭ (1,330 points)
Here's my angle to "Keep it simple"

Experience is very univocal about "News". It have to be simple and easy to understand at introduction IF people will actually start using it. Do NOT add to many features from the beginning! Believe me, I work with human development and innovations.

Better then to make two kinds of sheet. One simple, to launch to the world. And one "Development sheet", kept at these pages, where news and improvements can, not only be tested but, be used in full scale here by us kubb nerds!
commented Jul 17, 2012 by thingles Kubblic ❚ (6,110 points)
A followup question on the European tournaments that require all participating players share Kubbs. There is still no more than 6 players right? You could be throwing 10 kubbs, but you wouldn't have a situation where you have 6 people throwing batons and 10 people throwing Kubbs. I assume that is correct, yes?

At some point there could easily be a scoresheet that accommodates all 10 Kubbs being thrown by different people. The wiki however would be a bit more of a challenge. Doable, but for now I think we should leave this as is for a bit and work out the the details more before expanding too far.
commented Jul 19, 2012 by C=mxcXKubbSection Ironkubb ✭ (1,330 points)
I've been thinking of this now for a day. Here's my angle to "Keep it simple".

I have seen the history. Kubb tournaments started out i Sweden with WC in Rone in 1995. The year after started the Swedish Championships. Then, the next larger tournament will be German Open in Berlin wich started in 2003. A couple of years later started tournaments all over Europe, and the US started even some years after that. I can see a pattern here, that after the first boost, everyone wants to organize themselves better, and/or with each other. There are traces of websites that aimed to organize a European federation etc. And I think they failed because they tried to grasp to much. The proposed fed should regard Kubb on grass, sand and gravel etc etc. They focused on a lot of details, instead of starting up quick and small, trying to establish something small but solid firstly. this is my analogy to the stats point of "Keep it simple"

Experience is very univocal about "News". It have to be simple and easy to understand at introduction IF people will actually start using it. Maybe we get too used to Apples userfriendly approach and expect it in all areas?

Speaking for myself, PLEASE do not add too many features from the beginning! Believe me as I work with human development and innovations and have seen numerous examples of things failing because of over ambition.

Tossing batons and hitting kubbs is one thing, tossing in kubbs are a totally different thing. Better then to make two kinds of sheet. One simple about batons and hits, to launch to the world. And one "Development sheet", kept at these pages, where news and improvements can, not only be tested but, be used in full scale here by us kubb nerds firstly! And as skill of the notation and interest rises, people can download the inkastar stuff later?

BTW, liked your website!
commented Jul 19, 2012 by thingles Kubblic ❚ (6,110 points)
I completely agree with you. I would say at this point the scoresheet as we have it is a done v1.0. The notation only has one thing that bothers me and that is indicating different advantage lines. I want to figure out something cleaner for that, but everything else is totally solid.

The game mechanics in the wiki are coming along, and that can change anytime. The main thing there is to generate interesting things that people feel it's worth putting a game in the wiki for.

I appreciate your dialog and thoughts on this!
0 votes
answered Jul 12, 2012 by anonymous
If the target kubb is a field kubb or a baseline kubb (or rather just near or far). Also if the throw was under stress (for example last baton to clear all field kubbs in a game you're already losing). to see which player is best a bit which situation
commented Jul 13, 2012 by thingles Kubblic ❚ (6,110 points)
The notation system (http://wiki.planetkubb.com/wiki/Notation) already specifies the baseline kubb (b) from field kubbs (f) so that is built in.

I really like that clutch metric, throwing last baton at last field kubb. Will definitely look at a way to get that in.
commented Jul 16, 2012 by THansenite Ironkubb ✭ (2,660 points)
That makes me think of the "game winning goal" statistic in hockey.  If the final score is 4 to 2, the player scoring the third goal on the winning team gets the GWG stat.  It could be neat to see something like that for how many times a player knocks down the final field kubb during a round.
0 votes
answered Jul 16, 2012 by Dobbie Kubblic ❚ (6,450 points)
The stats I can think of that would help a team determine any practice needs, changes, or play styles differences would be:

Long meter percentage by player

Inkasting/First blast percentage (first baton at 2+ field kubbs)

1 for 1's (1 field kubb and 1 baton)

Clutch percentage (1 baton left and 1 field kubb less than 6m (half pitch)

Closure percentage (2 batons and 1 kubb left)

 

Just my thoughts. If our team had these stats for our players, it would really help with baton throwing order and practice regimen. I expect it would also help with other teams, as well.
0 votes
answered Jul 17, 2012 by ringerjr Kubbnoob (990 points)
Other factors I find interesting: who wins closest to king, do they choose first or side, and which side and why (if obvious like wind or sun or pitch condition).
commented Jul 17, 2012 by Dobbie Kubblic ❚ (6,450 points)
I agree with Aaron. We need to identify who picks what (and why) at the beginning. How important are environmental factors, like the wind or sun (maybe we should play in a dome?) and how important is first toss when there aren't any environmental factors (DMK had a 75% win ratio by going first....that's something we NEED to know immediately from your stats....are they crazy, or is it THAT important?
commented Jul 17, 2012 by anonymous
Is that win ratio at the U.S.? What was your win ratio when you did not go first?
commented Jul 22, 2012 by Dobbie Kubblic ❚ (6,450 points)
See the win ratio question. Someone did the math and it's at 60+%. Is that expected?
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