Using the center pin to stand a kubb

+1 vote
asked Jul 30, 2012 by hardcoreleftie Ironkubb ✭ (1,210 points)
At Nordic Fest we had a situation that occured and was resolved a different way each time. Neither team argued or called the ref over, but want to make sure I understand which version is correct.

Situation. Kubb thrown to centerline. Can't be stood up in bounds without touching or sliding up against the centpin. Is this okay or not? Is this the same if a kubb was sloppily played next to the king?

2 Answers

+1 vote
answered Jul 30, 2012 by Eric A. Kubblic ❚ (7,810 points)
Yes. You slide it up against a center-pitch pin, king, or another kubb, if the only other option is out of bounds.
commented Jul 30, 2012 by garrickvanburen Kubblic ❚ (7,390 points)
Over on another question - http://ask.planetkubb.com/528/kubb-raising-question-photo?show=529#a529- KubbHW stated that the centerline pins aren't a part of the game and recommended removing the pin in scenarios like this.

I'm sympathetic to that position and personally feel the pins are more conveniences than obstructions (i.e. a pinless pitch is still legal). As such - I'm all for temporarily removing them when they obstruct the game play.
commented Jul 30, 2012 by hardcoreleftie Ironkubb ✭ (1,210 points)
Chris H bounced one off the center pin that knocked over a quad. I think they are very much part of his game :)
commented Jul 30, 2012 by garrickvanburen Kubblic ❚ (7,390 points)
Yes, plays like that are super fun. I'm not sure if practicing off-the-center-pin shots is a reasonable use of practice time and to me that's the metric of something being part of the game.
commented Jul 30, 2012 by Eric A. Kubblic ❚ (7,810 points)
At the U.S. Championship, all six marking pins are part of play. None are to be removed. This is for a couple of reasons. No disagreement of where to put it back (even if there is a hole, there might be two or more holes) and should a team be able to take it out when they are inkasting. For instance, I just as often now bounce kubbs from right to left (out to in). If it is not part of play, then one can argue that I should be able to ask the other team to lean the corner pin down on the ground so I can come in at all angles. In addition, it can confuse things even more when trying to raise kubbs. All in all, at this time, it is our opinion that leaving them in eliminates any additional conflicts or needs for a ref on the pitch.
commented Jul 30, 2012 by garrickvanburen Kubblic ❚ (7,390 points)
Eric - thanks for providing the definitive word on the issue. This position in combination with the conversation I overheard about not marking the full perimeter of the pitch (line width causing confusion over in/out) makes perfect sense.
+1 vote
answered Aug 5, 2012 by KubbHW Ironkubb ✭ (2,430 points)

The question to be asked here and also at http://ask.planetkubb.com/528/kubb-raising-question-photo is: is the centerpin part of the game. The World Championship rules says there are 4 corner stakes and nowhere in the WC rules are centerpins, not in the text, not in the images. So you could say centerpins are no part of the game. But at all tournaments I've been to, centerpins are used to setup the pitch...

I play kubb since 2007 and I have never seen a centerpin taken out during the play until may this year when I was at a tournament in Belgium (I'm from Holland). The opponent had thrown a few kubbs near the centerpin and before they started to throw the battons, they removed the centerpin, so it wasn't in the way when throwing the battons to the group of kubbs. They told us this was allowed.

A month later, when we were playing a tournament in Holland, we talked about this with someone who has been to the World Championships a several times. He confirmed it was allowed and even told us that at the World Championships it is customary to lay down the centerpin in the extension of the middle line with its point at the hole. I have never been to the World Championships, so if someone tells me this is the way it's done at the WC, who am I to disagree?

I must say: I had to get used to it. Now suddenly several times in a game the centerpin was taken out the ground. While it had never been taken out the previous years. And it's a little awkward: the hole in the ground gets bigger and bigger during the tournament and the centerpins got more and more unstable.

And later I thought: If it's allowed for the attacking team to remove the centerpin, is it also allowed for the defending team? Some inkasters use the centerpin. If you're allowed to take it away, you could easily eliminate this advantage of the centerpin being there.

And then Dobbie asked the "Kubb raising question" (http://ask.planetkubb.com/528/kubb-raising-question-photo) at Ask Planet Kubb. I answered it by saying you should remove the centerpin temporarily and I was really curious about the reactions it would produce. And indeed a nice discussion started...

Personally I agree with EricGoplin: once the centerpin is there, it's there and it should not be removed during the game. But opionions don't count: you must know the rules.

Best way to deal with this is the way the US Championships rules did: they say the game components contain 6 field marking stakes. So here it's clear that the centerpins are part of the game and cannot be taken out. But as I mentioned before: in the WC rules only corner stakes are mentioned and centerpins do not exist. And I think the WC rules must be leading.

So what we do now? Who has been to the World Championships and know if it is allowed indeed to temporary remove the centerpin? (assuming they are using a centerpin, although it's not in the rules...)

commented Aug 6, 2012 by Eric A. Kubblic ❚ (7,810 points)
I do not ever remember them laying the pins down (like I saw at the European Championship on a video) like that at the VM. I do know that we had a ruling at the VM that when raising a kubb up against a center pin that either it was to be taken out to see if it would be "in" or not, or one had to imagine it if the pin was not there. I do not remember, as I was not out talking to the ref at that time. The thing is/was is that I was told the ruling was different than what had been discussed by a different ref in a previous year. I am not sure or not of that, but I can totally understand that happening with certain questions, as with larger tournaments, more refs are needed, and perhaps that could happen.

I am not sure if I agree if the WC needs to have the leading rules. There are so many different variables involved in running tournaments and decisions to operate/run a tournament. I think if a country (say Netherlands) want to do it a certain way that is their choice. Our goal here has always been to create an environment that is fun for all types of teams and at the same time to create an environment where a referee is seldom needed (for example, we will not be taking out pins). We had two referees, plus myself, in 2012. In the past, it was just me. Next year, we are going to work hard to have four referees. That is to provide for the probable increase in teams (perhaps a total close to 90+) and that we should have had an additional one this year.
asked Aug 6, 2012 by thingles Kubblic ❚ (6,110 points) Are pins a required part of the game? Can a legal pitch have no pins?
commented Aug 7, 2012 by C=mxcXKubbSection Ironkubb ✭ (1,330 points)
Reading this, I have really no other opinion than Eric A. We have discussed this much. What makes it difficult sometimes is that the Swedish version of the VM rules sometimes are more detailed than the same in foreign languages. Here is an example:

The swedish version of the page "Detaile rules":
http://www.vmkubb.com/about/rules.asp?pid=24

The English version:
http://www.vmkubb.com/about/rules.asp

The Swedish page contains more details. I think this won't change until a massive campaign from other countries hit the guestbook, though I'm NOT telling you to spam! But the pressure have to come from abroad Sweden.

One important thing said in the Swedish version is this: "Alla planlinjer anses gå mitt i planbegränsningspinnarna och är "sytrådstunna" "

Meaning "All pitch lines goes in the middle of the field mark stakes (It doesn't say corner stakes - my remark) and is regarded "sewing thread thin"

The latter meaning that even if you paint a line on the surface, there will be a "line within the line" - to use for deciding if a kubb is in or out, even if there is no "Field mark stakes". I think this part could explain the Q raised in another thread here at Planet Kubb?

I think the decision wether to take away or "not touch" the center stakes have varied over the years in Rone. Back when we started in 2005 I think we moved the stakes at some point, wich I don't remember now, but I haven't remember doing it since 2008.  They could have changed that, and once you are noticed of it, you incorporate the rule in your backbrain, as if it have always been there. :) It's the same as with the rule where to raise a field kubb that was a penalty kubb from before, when it is hit by a field kubb just thrown in. Earlier, you should put it back where it was, but a couple of years back they changed that rule, so now you raise it where it stops, at it's new place. We had a really bad argue back in 2010 with a good team that hadn't played for a couple of years and just couldn't cope with that change of the rule...

Anyway, back on track with the Center stakes. I think the reason for why they don't appear in the VM rules is that these drawings of the field haven't been changed since 1995, when they (the drawings) first appeared. The Center stakes is an improvement of the game, and therefore haven't been put in. But I think they are regarded as natural in todays game as the part of the rules we discussed in another thread about a kubb completely outside the field, in or out.

I know the referees have a more complete book of rules, and I have begged several times that they should put it on the web site, but one cry alone in the desert makes no storm. You guys and girls have to ask for it. The more countries, the better!

Last, as a general stand point, I think we are best to regard Rone GOIK as the S:t Andrews Golf Club of Kubb. S:t Andrews tells the golfers all over the world what Golf rules are, and how they should be interpreted. AND, there are a set of rules that can be decided locally. If we regard it this way, we can start our own tournaments, and we can proceed from the VM rules, and formulate some interpretations and classify them as "The house rules" of this tournament, and there will be another set of house rules in another tournament, etc. etc.

Then, if we at some point reach the situation that victory in tournament A makes you qualified for a seeded spot in the round robin at tournament B, then we could ask for a general correspondence of the rules between A and B.

BFN folks!
commented Aug 7, 2012 by C=mxcXKubbSection Ironkubb ✭ (1,330 points)
Oh, and I have noticed that this year in Rone, all pitches had a painted center line. Another improvement, not mentioned anywhere in any set of Rone rules.
commented Aug 8, 2012 by KubbHW Ironkubb ✭ (2,430 points)
So both Eric A. and C=DmxcXKubbSection say centerpins are NOT taken out at the VM. I will adapt my rules on http://www.KubbHW.nl and do it the way it's done in the American rules: the game components contain 6 field marking stakes and it's not allowed to temporarily take a pin out during the match.

And so for this question: you slide the kubb up against a centerpin.
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